Why the hug are we cutting education funding? (USA)

[treefae]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35792943...shington_post/ this is about state standards being replaced by national.

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by DaAznKnight

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler

Funny you should mention Hitler, didn't he strongly fund government education, where the teachers could create responsible citizens instead of teaching the three r's?

Originally Posted by Kraheera

And right there, you've hit the nail on the head.

Because it does not impact the taxpayers NOW, it is shoved on the backburner. DO they realize that it will most certainly affect their pocketbook later? I don't think so. Look at what jobs are available today. Your average worker does not need to be creative, or a genius. They need basic math skills, and the ability to follow orders. Don't forget that they need basic reasoning.

This is pointless to argue if you will not acknowledge that money =/= equal to a quality education, as is shown in both the generational increases in spending vs the generational quality of education, as well as in the fact private schools are able to teach as well if not better at a lower cost per pupil. You can keep throwing good money after bad, paying teachers 6 figures a year and the reality is it won't change anything, and that is the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Kraheera]

Originally Posted by memnoch

Funny you should mention Hitler, didn't he strongly fund government education, where the teachers could create responsible citizens instead of teaching the three r's?



This is pointless to argue if you will not acknowledge that money =/= equal to a quality education, as is shown in both the generational increases in spending vs the generational quality of education, as well as in the fact private schools are able to teach as well if not better at a lower cost per pupil. You can keep throwing good money after bad, paying teachers 6 figures a year and the reality is it won't change anything, and that is the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I don't want them to do the same thing. I want them to take the leashes off the teachers. I want quality education for our special needs kids, but they need to be put in classes built for them, not slowing down the classes of other kids.

I want our other kids to be taught how to actually LEARN, not just memorize by rote some random information sot hat they can pass a standardized test.

But having that sort of flexibility WILL take money. IT will require quality facilities. Field trips are a must. Theory is one thing, but actually SEEING what you are learning is great.

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by Kraheera

I don't want them to do the same thing. I want them to take the leashes off the teachers. I want quality education for our special needs kids, but they need to be put in classes built for them, not slowing down the classes of other kids.

I want our other kids to be taught how to actually LEARN, not just memorize by rote some random information sot hat they can pass a standardized test.

But having that sort of flexibility WILL take money. IT will require quality facilities. Field trips are a must. Theory is one thing, but actually SEEING what you are learning is great.

I would support an increase in spending if drastically different ideas came with it, but the reality is we aren't changing anything, just throwing money at it, and since it hasn't worked, why keep throwing money at it until there is a serious change with it. Seriously, going off of my schooling, in high school we had a library with a dozen computers, a typing class with 24 computers, a dozen computers in the office, a computer lab with no less than 80 computers, and maybe 2 dozen other computers in different areas. Each with Windows and programs like word and photoshop, oh and clipart. Now with 150 computers even with an educational discount you are looking at $300-$400 in software, upgraded every 5 years or so, so about $50-$60k or about $10k/year. Just by switching operating systems...oh and the software would be more up to date. Then think about a tv in every room and the cable bill that would go with that...or how much would be saved with voice over IP vs the phone companies bill. I'm willing to bet I could go through and eliminate 1/4 of an average schools expenses without a person ever noticing much of a difference. Furthermore I'm willing to bet I could raise many schools revenue and be applauded for it. How about putting back vending machines and adding more fast food choices. How about putting a school uniform policy into place and sell casual days on Fridays for just $1 (my step brothers private catholic school did that). How about more pay to play after school activities. How about more fund raisers? Have you noticed most private schools have festivals and make a killing, especially when they have gambling booths and alcohol. I can't tell you the last time I saw a public school do that. How about renting out parts of the school after hours and during breaks to well established and recognized groups, paying 1-2 security guards hourly to watch over things?

[DaAznKnight]

Originally Posted by memnoch

Funny you should mention Hitler, didn't he strongly fund government education, where the teachers could create responsible citizens instead of teaching the three r's?

Indeed he did. However, what he required was the loyalty of the people, so a strong education program is required for brainwashing (remember the Hitler Youth?). It's not like he needed any votes.

On the other hand, in our day and age, brainwashing in schools doesn't really work anymore. There's the internet, a source of information that isn't controlled by the government.

Can you imagine the shitstorm if our schools started teaching stuff like "Jews have tiny brains"?

As such, the only real way to control people is to dumb them down, give them little sound bites to form their belief structure, and eliminate critical thinking. You pretty much guarantee votes for your party if you can get people to scream a tagline you created to drown out the opposition, without regard for any facts or thought. Belief systems are how we filter out information to fit our thought schema. It's especially prevalent in our age with more information than we can ever learn in a lifetime.

It's a brilliant system actually. It creates an illusion of freedom and democracy. Hitler's system didn't really provide such an illusion.

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by DaAznKnight

Indeed he did. However, what he required was the loyalty of the people, so a strong education program is required for brainwashing (remember the Hitler Youth?). It's not like he needed any votes.

On the other hand, in our day and age, brainwashing in schools doesn't really work anymore. There's the internet, a source of information that isn't controlled by the government.

Can you imagine the shitstorm if our schools started teaching stuff like "Jews have tiny brains"?

As such, the only real way to control people is to dumb them down, give them little sound bites to form their belief structure, and eliminate critical thinking. You pretty much guarantee votes for your party if you can get people to scream a tagline you created to drown out the opposition, without regard for any facts or thought. Belief systems are how we filter out information to fit our thought schema. It's especially prevalent in our age with more information than we can ever learn in a lifetime.

It's a brilliant system actually. It creates an illusion of freedom and democracy. Hitler's system didn't really provide such an illusion.

Really, we don't brainwash through false information? How about the fact we teach that FDR brought about an end to the great depression through federalization. How about the fact we teach that Lincoln was anti slavery when he was about doing what it took to try to avoid war, going as far as saying that to prevent war he would allow slavery for all, slavery for none, or slavery for some but not others. How about the fact we teach stories like Washington chopping down the cherry tree. Or that Christopher Columbus discovered the world wasn't flat. Or the vague education we give on the war of 1812, most people don't realize that we started the war (although it was in retaliation for kidnapping our sailors). How about we use educational material like Oliver Stone's JFK which is highly inaccurate and nothing more than a conspiracy theory. How about the fact we teach about the Cuban Missile crisis in detail, but just skim over the Bay of Pigs fiasco. How about why most Americans have never heard of John Hanson. How about the urban legend that the white house got its name because it was painted white after the brittish burned it during the war of 1812. How about the one person one vote myth. How about learning that Einstein failed math, or the Newton and the apple story, or Ben Franklin and the kite, or why we learn about Edison and not Tesla, or why we learn about Ford but not Karl Benz, or Paul Revere's ride (he was caught and arrested early on in the ride), or that the civil war was about slavery, or what about how Rosa Parks was portrayed as an average woman who just happened to sit in the front of a bus, all by happenstance, or Columbus discovering America, or how about Jamestown being the first colony (read up on Roanoke), or how about Plymoth Rock, or the destruction of American forests, when we have more trees in America now than any time in our history. Then there is sex ed...I've never seen a great version, you have those who tell you sex before marriage always results in pregnancy and will send you to hell, you have those who preach abortion as a form of birth control and everything between. How many sex ed classes teach that straight non drug using males who only engage in oral or vaginal sex are statistically unlikely to get HIV? I could go on for days giving examples.

[memnoch]

I just watched last weeks "Stossel" on Hulu and they covered government provided education, which could provide an education to many people here

http://www.hulu.com/watch/133747/sto...010#s-p1-so-i0

[BryonMorrigan]

Originally Posted by memnoch

I just watched last weeks "Stossel" on Hulu and they covered government provided education, which could provide an education to many people here

http://www.hulu.com/watch/133747/sto...010#s-p1-so-i0

Yeah, that John Stossel is certainly an example of a fair & balanced, neutral source.

COUNTERPOINT: FAIR - Stossel’s "Stupid" Schools: A beginner’s course in deceptive reporting

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by BryonMorrigan

Yeah, that John Stossel is certainly an example of a fair & balanced, neutral source.

COUNTERPOINT: FAIR - Stossel’s "Stupid" Schools: A beginner’s course in deceptive reporting

The episode I linked is from his new show which while still biased has a long line of points you should at least see before trying to refute. Things like the experiment in DC with chartered schools where they randomly chose inner city students to go to these schools, these schools which outperformed the public schools did so on half the funding...how did president Obama respond to the results...by claiming it was a failure because well...Robert Gibbs wasn't really sure why.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Originally Posted by DaAznKnight

Can you imagine the shitstorm if our schools started teaching stuff like "Jews have tiny brains"?

Yeah, that would cause problems, but considering that the blue-eyes versus brown-eyes lesson in racism to this day leads to the occasional physical altercation even in jr high kids when the teachers let it get out of hand, ideological subterfuge isn't really all that difficult.

Hell, we see violence due to South Park giving them a rationalization, right Ginger? All you have to do is make violence seem "hilarious."